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Post by Miege22 on Jun 8, 2008 15:26:36 GMT -5
I just have one thing to point out, and correct me if Im wrong here. But, you all had some players on your team right? Clippers, I know you had only two, but it was still something. Now, when expansion teams usually come into the league, they have nothing. As well as basically nothing to choose from. Which is basically done to keep the expansion team near the bottom for a year or 2 until the GM can make them a contender. I guess Im just wondering how many GMs took over expansion teams without realizing you are basically building from scratch?
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Post by rockndoc on Jun 8, 2008 15:28:08 GMT -5
Here's another thought. Now that there are a full complement of GM,s, Blow the whole thing up and start from where thr real teams are right now. That would be interesting, but alot of work.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jun 8, 2008 15:50:37 GMT -5
I knew I would only have two players, and I was fine with it. Coming in to this I understood I wasn't really in a position to make demands. But what we have here, which is never in the NBA, is 30 teams worth of talent, consolidated into 20 teams. Those 20 teams then get to keep the best of what they have "acquired" and throw the scrubs back to the new guys. The talent pool in the expansion draft isn't terrible . . . I think I could put together a pretty solid team with that group of players, but 10 teams? No way. Spread that talent across 10 rosters and it gets really thin really fast.
In no way imaginable is this a realistic scenario. Maybe, just maybe, this is a situation where realistic rules aren't the way to go.
Its hard enough to start from scratch and compete against a team with LeBron, Big Z, and Delonte West. Its something else to start from scratch and compete against a team with LeBron, Dwight Howard, and Jason Richardson when the best player available to you is Raymond Felton. See the difference?
Thats all we have an issue with. The system is significantly stacked against us . . .
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Post by carney25 on Jun 8, 2008 16:53:00 GMT -5
Well to start the whole thing over agian would be ridiculous to those who have been here the whole time. That is over a year's worth of work and time wasted. It this league were to start over (Miege I really hope you wouldn't consider doing that) I bet some of you will leave and we would downsize again. It would just be the whole cylce all over again.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jun 8, 2008 17:10:47 GMT -5
No one was suggesting starting over (well i guess rockndoc was...), what we want to know is if their is a better way to even the playing field other than this expansion draft that I'm sure was designed with the best intentions, but fails to do what it is supposed to. Re-read my last post and then put yourself in the position of an expansion GM.
How do you compete against a team with Yao, Dirk, Deron Williams, and Rasard Lewis, when you inherit a nearly empty roster and the BPA in the expansion draft when you pick is Rajon Rondo? Its not very feasible.
If possible, I suggest we look at a way to spread out the league's talent evenly, while retaining existing GM's rights to hold on to their favorite players.
How about an expansion draft where you can franchise 2 players and only 3 can be picked from any one team? A team wouldn't be able to keep Yao, Dirk, DWill, and Rashard, but you would be able to pick your 2 favorites and understand you were lucky to acquire them at a time when the league had 10 less teams in it. That would make for a more competitive league which is good for everyone in the long run.
Just a suggestion, you don't have to consider it, but I think it would be a good idea to keep this dialogue going.
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Post by Miege22 on Jun 8, 2008 17:56:16 GMT -5
Alright, we are going to make it 4 players. Everyone satisfied?
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Post by ajant on Jun 8, 2008 18:15:55 GMT -5
i guess 4 will have to do. it's not ideal, but it's huge impovement over just 2
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jun 8, 2008 20:04:33 GMT -5
It doesn't change the fact that we are building teams around the likes or Rajon Rondo and company, but I am glad that I can pick up both Rasheed Wallace AND Travis Outlaw without anyone getting their panties in a bunch. Sorry I'm so unhappy with this draft. At first I didn't really see an issue with it, but when I looked closer there is clearly no way to build a team up through the expansion draft and be competitive.
In the real NBA, even the bad teams have stars like Elton Brand and Dwayne Wade. Here, all the stars are spread around a handful of good teams, and the rest are stuck depending on mediocre at best role players to compete with what are essentially all-star teams.
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Post by Miege22 on Jun 8, 2008 21:26:58 GMT -5
Yes, but in the real expansion draft, the choices are worse. Here is Charlotte's roster after their expansion draft:
Lonny Baxter Primoz Brezec JR Bremer Maurice Carter Predrag Drobnjak Desmond Ferguson Marcus Fizer Richie Frahm Brandon Hunter Jason Kapono Zaza Pachulia Sasha Pavlovic Jamal Sampson Tamar Slay Theron Smith Jeff Trepagnier Gerald Wallace Jahidi White Loren Woods
The only "star" was Wallace, but keep in mind this was before he became what he is today. Other than that, maybe Jason Kapono but that's it. The best player in the expansion draft? Jerry Stackhouse. So, the talent here is a little better than what there was in '04.
Also, the point of an expansion draft isnt to make a team competitive right away. It is used to get the teams decent to good players, then it is up to the team to either find a stud in FA, or build up via the draft.
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Post by Mighty Mouse on Jun 8, 2008 22:15:30 GMT -5
The talent in this draft is slightly better than it was for Charlotte in 04. True. What is different this time around is that you are trying to spread that talent across 10 teams, not 1. Secondly, established teams in this league are way better than the established teams in the NBA. Why? Because half of the teams got to rob the other half of all their best players. That is a huge amount of talent that is all of a sudden consolidated onto a small number of rosters. Something like that would never happen in real life, so using real life rules to rectify it is not going to work.
What we have here is essentially a monopoly game that some of you have been playing for a year. You have bought up all the properties and are covering the board in houses. Now you invite us to play too and say "here, you can have a railroad, one of the utilities, and you can divide the purples and light blues amongst yourselves." We're grateful to be playing, but how long do you really expect us to last against the monopolies you have created?
I don't know the best way to fix it. I offered one suggestion that I thought was fair. If y'all think that letting us pick up to 4 players from a single team in this deep, deep expansion draft is the way to do it, so be it. I've already got Sheed and my fingers are crossed that Travis Outlaw is around come pick 20. The Clippers are going to the 'ship!
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Post by carney25 on Jun 8, 2008 22:15:45 GMT -5
Don't forget , you expansion teams are gonna have a ton of cap space when Free Agency rolls around. That will even things out as well.
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Post by rien2244 on Jun 8, 2008 22:42:08 GMT -5
Another good point Carney. Every single one of the players people "stole" who were signed a one year deal were made unrestricted, and those who had stars on longer deals had to leave some guys off. The FA crop is stacked, and the people with huge cap space benefit, as I did last year.
Dont get so star struck, Obsidians team last year had one or two "superstars" if that, and he got past me because all of mine were rested that week. A team of solid 3-4 star players and a star is more than enough.
Its hard to believe you are ignoring the Fa process so much, since that is where the bulk of the talent is, and where you have the greatest advantage.
The irony here is that the person who has gained the most from the expansion process is Ajant, who stole all of Obsidians eligible players for some first round picks that, while almost everyone overvalues them, will not make much of an impact.
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Post by ajant on Jun 9, 2008 7:17:47 GMT -5
you guys played 20 teams league and started with realistic rosters. you probably wanted 30 team league, but couldn't get 30 guys. you decided to take good players from 10 unused teams and that's ok. it would be stupid to leave bunch of good players ineligible in a league that deep. so far so good. then you decide to expand the league to 30, and let 10 new teams get the leftovers + shallow expansion draft. Miege22 keeps bringing up bobcats expansion in real nba, but as mightymouse keeps pointing out, there you had 29 equal teams and one expansion team, here you have 20 teams with much more talent then those 29 due to taking best players from 10 inactive teams, and 10 exp teams. in that situation any comparisons between our exp and bobcats exp are not valid. for exp teams here, rookie draft has to play even bigger role in building, but we don't even get a chance at mayo, rose & beasly because bobcats got 4th pick, though as i said earlier same rules can't apply; bobcats were given a high pick, but at least half of the expansion teams weren't. worst returning team is much better then any exp team and they still had the chance to get 3 top picks while none of us did.
about fa class, if you combine fa list with expansion list you can't make more then 2 teams that can compete with 20 returning teams and we, providing we get all good fa players, have to spread them over 10 teams. see the problem? do you really think exp teams are in such great position that you need additional protection from them, in the form of 2 player per team rule, so they don't get too strong for you?
now i would have shut up after a change of the rule, but this last comment really provoked me. Its hard to believe you are overvaluing the Fa process so much when best team you can create from fas is still weaker then yours and as i mentioned before we need to spread it over 10 teams. you have your team guaranteed while we "have the greatest advantage" in bidding for limited amount of talent.
at the same time i stole gooden, mccants, davis and ilgauskas from Obsidians because he would have lost them all through the expansion and i let him actually have 2 top 12 picks for them. you, on the other hand, didn't steal from the cavs, though cavs never got anything out of lebron? i got better part of the deal, btw Miege22 thinks i overpaid, but it wasn't nearly as onesided as your lebron deal.
the point: yes we have advantage in fa signings and we get to pick some solid(not great, or even good except for few exceptions, but solid) guys in expansion draft, but look at what you got last year when you snatched all those studs free of charge, then you got a whole season to trade and build up your team, then you got to protect 6 players. please tell me that we are in better situation then you are with our cap space and opportunity to trade for some, average at best, players on a slight discount.
as far as being star driven, those stars brought you to the play-offs even if they were rested in final few weeks. i think you'll agree it's still better to make it into play-offs and lose all match ups there then to ride your scrubs to the consolation and win there. "A team of solid 3-4 star players and a star is more than enough" you say, i agree, but i have no way of making a team like that any time soon.
no one signed up to lead expansion team in order to build through draft and come up with a competitive team in 3-4 years, because there is no money in this to keep you happy even when you are losing. you play this to have fun and to win or you don't play at all. i for one want to build the team from zero, i think it will be fun, but i want to be given a fair chance to do it, i don't want to be kept down for a few years, because that's the way real nba does it. that doesn't give me a chance to have fun or to win. now i don't ask you to start over. i'm not even asking for what mightymouse mentioned(protect just 1 player and keep 2 player per team rule), although that might be most fair solution of all(you still get to keep "3-4 star players and 1 superstar" you wanted + all your bench depth which turned out to be so precious that it needed further protection with 2 per team rule and we, on the other side, get much more talent). i knew what i was getting myself into(except for the now famous rule) and i'm not complaining anymore, but i just have to respond to these comments where you make it look like we actually have advantage over you. you need to admit that you have huge advantage due to how league was created and try to do everything possible in reasonable limits to make it as fair as possible. that's all i ask
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Post by rockndoc on Jun 9, 2008 7:55:51 GMT -5
Good point about getting Four players for two draft picks. I would have loved to pull a deal like that but I HAVE NO DRAFT PICKS FOR TWO YEARS!
Like I have a chance?
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Post by rien2244 on Jun 9, 2008 11:07:20 GMT -5
You have no way of making that any time soon? You have the solid role players and 30 odd million in cap space, if you cant parlay that into some talent then i dont think the expansion draft is your main problem.
I couldn't care less if meige thinks you overpaid, its not like we all cant think unless he tells us what to think. Thats the prime example of picks being overvalued, outside of the first two, and maybe the next few, there arent players that contribute as much as any one of those guys. Yeah, can't believe you actually gave up a shot at Robin Freaking Lopez for dumb ol Z. He only gets around 16 points and 8 rebounds a night. Ricky Davis? He only averages a 15,5, and 5! You couldve had a nice project D.J. Augustin! I guess Im starting to see it, that does make way more sense! Hell, wheres that guy that bailed on the pistons so he could have the first pick, I may give him LeBron right now.
I dont even remember or care what the rule was, just dont cry like you're such a victim, when, of all the expansion teams you're in the best position.
In fact, since this is repetitive, stupid, and rather pointless, Im locking it.
4 players from each team, noone with a good team actually did anything but steal from the deleted ones (even Utah didnt sign anybody, and Atlanta and myself signed 2 or 3 each), and a few top 12 draft picks are always worth more than a group of proven veterans.
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